1 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:20,160 welcome to shattered reality with your 2 00:00:27,659 --> 00:00:24,730 hosts Kate Valentine and faroush prepare 3 00:00:31,769 --> 00:00:27,669 to have your paradigm shifted in the 4 00:00:36,300 --> 00:00:31,779 truths questioned and now shattered 5 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:36,310 reality true sure well it's another 6 00:00:42,540 --> 00:00:39,570 episode and we're still here yes thanks 7 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:42,550 we have a wonderful wonderful guest so 8 00:00:44,940 --> 00:00:44,410 if you'd like to introduce it that'd be 9 00:00:46,410 --> 00:00:44,950 terrific 10 00:00:49,770 --> 00:00:46,420 well I do want to introduce him but I 11 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:49,780 want to date our podcast first okay if 12 00:00:59,570 --> 00:00:53,730 you don't mind today is April 26th oh 13 00:01:02,670 --> 00:00:59,580 2016 and today's guest is an extremely 14 00:01:05,940 --> 00:01:02,680 accomplished gentleman he is an emeritus 15 00:01:08,100 --> 00:01:05,950 professor of philosophy and the former 16 00:01:11,210 --> 00:01:08,110 chair of the department at the 17 00:01:13,649 --> 00:01:11,220 University of Maryland Baltimore 18 00:01:17,580 --> 00:01:13,659 currently he is the editor-in-chief of 19 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:17,590 the Journal of scientific exploration he 20 00:01:23,219 --> 00:01:19,570 is a past president of the Paris 21 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:23,229 Psychological Association and he is the 22 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:27,010 author of six books and more than 60 23 00:01:34,700 --> 00:01:29,530 essays and the recipient of numerous 24 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:34,710 awards grants and fellowships and now 25 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:44,550 thank you so much for being with us 26 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:48,970 great book yeah we were recently looking 27 00:01:53,580 --> 00:01:51,250 over your book I think it's your second 28 00:01:58,320 --> 00:01:53,590 to latest book I'm not sure the gold 29 00:02:02,370 --> 00:01:58,330 leaf lady and it really falls in line 30 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:02,380 with a couple of other guests that we've 31 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:05,890 been having one of whom is also a former 32 00:02:13,140 --> 00:02:10,330 professor of philosophy dr. Michael 33 00:02:16,750 --> 00:02:13,150 Grosso who has a good friend oh good 34 00:02:19,850 --> 00:02:16,760 who has been working on the the 35 00:02:23,270 --> 00:02:19,860 not like I say the problem the phenomena 36 00:02:26,120 --> 00:02:23,280 of levitation and then we've had Ross 37 00:02:28,340 --> 00:02:26,130 dunseith on who's not a professor of 38 00:02:32,060 --> 00:02:28,350 philosophy but an electrical engineer 39 00:02:35,710 --> 00:02:32,070 and in different ways both of these 40 00:02:41,510 --> 00:02:35,720 gentlemen do seem to work with a 41 00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:41,520 psychokinesis or PK and so you and your 42 00:02:47,870 --> 00:02:45,450 gold leaf lady come right in line with 43 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:47,880 that and maybe you could kind of bring 44 00:02:56,630 --> 00:02:50,970 that together for us or more for our 45 00:03:00,680 --> 00:02:56,640 listeners how PK is involved with micro 46 00:03:02,420 --> 00:03:00,690 PK and and macro PK and levitation could 47 00:03:03,830 --> 00:03:02,430 you kind of just kind of so that all 48 00:03:07,640 --> 00:03:03,840 together for us Steve 49 00:03:09,700 --> 00:03:07,650 sure well PK or psychokinesis very 50 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:09,710 roughly just means mind over matter and 51 00:03:16,490 --> 00:03:13,410 the usual assumption about PK is that if 52 00:03:19,460 --> 00:03:16,500 it occurs it has to do with a direct 53 00:03:21,410 --> 00:03:19,470 effect of one's mental states on things 54 00:03:23,180 --> 00:03:21,420 outside the body like making objects 55 00:03:27,230 --> 00:03:23,190 move or affecting random event 56 00:03:29,390 --> 00:03:27,240 generators things like that but as a 57 00:03:32,510 --> 00:03:29,400 matter of fact we don't really know 58 00:03:34,820 --> 00:03:32,520 whether or not PK is involved in some 59 00:03:37,850 --> 00:03:34,830 other phenomena that we don't also 60 00:03:40,100 --> 00:03:37,860 understand like hypnotic phenomena or 61 00:03:42,050 --> 00:03:40,110 placebo effects or a psychosomatic 62 00:03:44,210 --> 00:03:42,060 ailments where the effects could be 63 00:03:46,070 --> 00:03:44,220 directed toward one's own body for all 64 00:03:48,470 --> 00:03:46,080 we know so I think we need we need to 65 00:03:50,810 --> 00:03:48,480 leave that open as at least an option in 66 00:03:54,070 --> 00:03:50,820 logical space but basically it just 67 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:54,080 means mind over matter so producing 68 00:03:58,220 --> 00:03:56,850 physical effects without the usual kinds 69 00:04:00,560 --> 00:03:58,230 of intermediaries that we're familiar 70 00:04:02,930 --> 00:04:00,570 with you know like pushing or various 71 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:02,940 kinds of obvious causal chains this 72 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:04,650 would be a direct effect of the mind on 73 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:10,050 the world I see yes indeed so the use of 74 00:04:16,820 --> 00:04:13,530 affecting random number generators is 75 00:04:20,750 --> 00:04:16,830 more in the area of most of the time 76 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:20,760 micro-p case more effects on on a 77 00:04:27,950 --> 00:04:24,810 machine an electrical system whereas 78 00:04:29,260 --> 00:04:27,960 something like levitation or moving 79 00:04:32,740 --> 00:04:29,270 things around 80 00:04:38,260 --> 00:04:32,750 is more what we would call macro pique 81 00:04:42,070 --> 00:04:38,270 Kirk so your book the gold leaf lady 82 00:04:46,770 --> 00:04:42,080 begins with the first instance in the 83 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:46,780 book is that of a woman in Florida and 84 00:04:54,730 --> 00:04:51,370 her adventures with producing a 85 00:04:56,650 --> 00:04:54,740 substance on her body do you want to 86 00:04:59,140 --> 00:04:56,660 tell us a little bit about that sure 87 00:05:01,530 --> 00:04:59,150 this is somebody whose body would break 88 00:05:03,580 --> 00:05:01,540 out spontaneously and also 89 00:05:06,430 --> 00:05:03,590 instantaneously in a kind of golden 90 00:05:08,950 --> 00:05:06,440 colored foil a very thin foil sort of 91 00:05:13,450 --> 00:05:08,960 like the wrapping on Hershey's Kisses 92 00:05:15,340 --> 00:05:13,460 but even finer and let me just back up 93 00:05:16,840 --> 00:05:15,350 for a second one of the things about 94 00:05:20,290 --> 00:05:16,850 Katie that's her name 95 00:05:23,020 --> 00:05:20,300 is that her case began sort of like a 96 00:05:26,140 --> 00:05:23,030 poltergeist case and perhaps you 97 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:26,150 listeners know that the typical profile 98 00:05:30,820 --> 00:05:28,010 of a poltergeist case is that you have a 99 00:05:32,980 --> 00:05:30,830 disturbed teenager or adolescent or 100 00:05:35,170 --> 00:05:32,990 somebody or other with deep emotional 101 00:05:37,420 --> 00:05:35,180 problems but no convenient or 102 00:05:39,730 --> 00:05:37,430 conventional way of expressing them or 103 00:05:41,770 --> 00:05:39,740 dealing with them and so it seems as 104 00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:41,780 though the poltergeist phenomena 105 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:43,730 attached to the person we know that 106 00:05:48,910 --> 00:05:45,050 because if the person moves the 107 00:05:51,430 --> 00:05:48,920 phenomena tend to follow but when this 108 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:51,440 person has these intense emotions and no 109 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:53,690 way to release them conveniently or 110 00:05:59,440 --> 00:05:56,050 obviously it's like it's kind of brute 111 00:06:03,310 --> 00:05:59,450 psychic flailing about so the person has 112 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:03,320 these feelings and goes as it were and 113 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:07,010 things fly around or shatter or burst 114 00:06:12,670 --> 00:06:09,730 into flame or whatever it might be and 115 00:06:14,980 --> 00:06:12,680 Katie's psychic abilities and there are 116 00:06:18,270 --> 00:06:14,990 several of them actually didn't appear 117 00:06:20,950 --> 00:06:18,280 until she married her second husband and 118 00:06:24,900 --> 00:06:20,960 by all accounts was a difficult and 119 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:24,910 perhaps even abusive relationship and 120 00:06:29,890 --> 00:06:28,130 early on various kinds of poltergeists 121 00:06:31,710 --> 00:06:29,900 like things were happening to Katie so 122 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:31,720 objects were appearing and disappearing 123 00:06:36,130 --> 00:06:34,130 moving from one place in the house to 124 00:06:38,380 --> 00:06:36,140 another place in the house or furniture 125 00:06:41,860 --> 00:06:38,390 rearranging itself things like that and 126 00:06:42,350 --> 00:06:41,870 then one day a carving set appeared out 127 00:06:46,010 --> 00:06:42,360 of no 128 00:06:48,740 --> 00:06:46,020 and and Katy's husband said what good is 129 00:06:50,809 --> 00:06:48,750 it if it isn't money and then two days 130 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:50,819 later Katy's body started to break out 131 00:06:56,149 --> 00:06:53,090 and what looked like this golden foil 132 00:06:59,809 --> 00:06:56,159 but it wasn't gold it turned out to be 133 00:07:02,659 --> 00:06:59,819 brass that is 80 percent copper 20 134 00:07:04,850 --> 00:07:02,669 percent zinc mm-hmm so if you want my 135 00:07:07,580 --> 00:07:04,860 pup psychological analysis of this it's 136 00:07:09,589 --> 00:07:07,590 that symbolically this allowed Katy to 137 00:07:12,170 --> 00:07:09,599 satisfy her husband's demand for 138 00:07:14,209 --> 00:07:12,180 something valuable but she didn't really 139 00:07:16,999 --> 00:07:14,219 have to bear the responsibility of being 140 00:07:18,909 --> 00:07:17,009 the goose that laid the golden egg which 141 00:07:24,730 --> 00:07:18,919 i think would be a very weighty 142 00:07:30,260 --> 00:07:27,980 this was a very interesting way for Katy 143 00:07:32,180 --> 00:07:30,270 to express what I imagine was her 144 00:07:33,519 --> 00:07:32,190 considerable rage against her husband I 145 00:07:37,159 --> 00:07:33,529 think she felt trapped in the marriage 146 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:37,169 and so she wasn't really giving her 147 00:07:40,219 --> 00:07:38,610 husband what he wanted he wanted 148 00:07:42,619 --> 00:07:40,229 something valuable and she was giving 149 00:07:44,089 --> 00:07:42,629 him brass she was giving him fool's gold 150 00:07:49,399 --> 00:07:44,099 it was a way of giving him the psychic 151 00:07:51,950 --> 00:07:49,409 finger so this was only one of Katie's 152 00:07:55,999 --> 00:07:51,960 interesting abilities she was she had 153 00:07:57,709 --> 00:07:56,009 only a first grade education and so she 154 00:07:59,180 --> 00:07:57,719 was functionally illiterate she knew how 155 00:08:00,740 --> 00:07:59,190 to write her name she knew the letters 156 00:08:04,430 --> 00:08:00,750 of the alphabet but she couldn't form 157 00:08:06,980 --> 00:08:04,440 words or sentences but when she was in a 158 00:08:08,809 --> 00:08:06,990 dissociative or mediumistic trance she 159 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:08,819 would write out quatrains and medieval 160 00:08:14,450 --> 00:08:10,770 French and Latin ostensibly from 161 00:08:20,529 --> 00:08:17,209 so she actually wrote these we just pen 162 00:08:22,670 --> 00:08:20,539 on paper yes I mean it wasn't that she 163 00:08:25,700 --> 00:08:22,680 dictated it to someone else 164 00:08:27,559 --> 00:08:25,710 she was writing no she wrote it in 165 00:08:31,700 --> 00:08:27,569 cursive that's right 166 00:08:35,060 --> 00:08:31,710 you met her and you saw her produce some 167 00:08:37,009 --> 00:08:35,070 gold leaf yes yeah one time I was just 168 00:08:42,199 --> 00:08:37,019 sitting across the dinner table from her 169 00:08:45,050 --> 00:08:42,209 and suddenly some little piece of foil 170 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:45,060 appeared on her face now I was watching 171 00:08:51,019 --> 00:08:47,490 her all this time because that's why I 172 00:08:52,819 --> 00:08:51,029 was there and her hands were nowhere 173 00:08:54,590 --> 00:08:52,829 near her face it was clear that neither 174 00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:54,600 she nor her husband who were seated next 175 00:09:00,829 --> 00:08:57,569 to her had placed it there it was just 176 00:09:02,660 --> 00:09:00,839 suddenly there and there's a lot of 177 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:02,670 first-hand testimony from other people 178 00:09:06,500 --> 00:09:05,250 who've for example held her hand when 179 00:09:09,410 --> 00:09:06,510 she felt that something was about to 180 00:09:11,510 --> 00:09:09,420 happen and they've seen the entire hand 181 00:09:13,550 --> 00:09:11,520 and arm erupt in large quantities of 182 00:09:17,809 --> 00:09:13,560 foil that's one of the reasons the case 183 00:09:25,970 --> 00:09:17,819 is so strong has it been photographed or 184 00:09:27,680 --> 00:09:25,980 video do record of the foil actually 185 00:09:30,380 --> 00:09:27,690 appearing I mean the problem was that 186 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:30,390 Katie had no control over this so you 187 00:09:33,769 --> 00:09:32,370 know we would follow her around with 188 00:09:36,639 --> 00:09:33,779 video cameras which in those days 189 00:09:39,050 --> 00:09:36,649 weren't as light as they are now and 190 00:09:40,370 --> 00:09:39,060 wait for something to happen but usually 191 00:09:44,180 --> 00:09:40,380 as soon as you put it down something 192 00:09:46,610 --> 00:09:44,190 what happened but one time we were just 193 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:46,620 the usual protocol for studying Katie 194 00:09:52,460 --> 00:09:49,890 was we bring her into a room with video 195 00:09:54,860 --> 00:09:52,470 cameras one or more set up we'd seen her 196 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:54,870 in a chair we'd ask her to lift up her 197 00:09:58,550 --> 00:09:56,130 shirt so we could see there was nothing 198 00:10:00,260 --> 00:09:58,560 concealed under her shirt because 199 00:10:04,790 --> 00:10:00,270 sometimes her abdomen would break out in 200 00:10:06,769 --> 00:10:04,800 large quantities and I would inspect her 201 00:10:10,579 --> 00:10:06,779 hair her hands and look very carefully 202 00:10:12,680 --> 00:10:10,589 and her main investigator psychiatrist 203 00:10:14,660 --> 00:10:12,690 and physician would examine her a little 204 00:10:18,829 --> 00:10:14,670 bit more minutely in the privacy of the 205 00:10:21,740 --> 00:10:18,839 bathroom so we were absolutely sure that 206 00:10:25,189 --> 00:10:21,750 there was no foil stashed anywhere 207 00:10:26,930 --> 00:10:25,199 nearby and usually when the foil was 208 00:10:29,059 --> 00:10:26,940 about to appear Katie would feel some 209 00:10:31,939 --> 00:10:29,069 kind of precursor there would be a kind 210 00:10:35,290 --> 00:10:31,949 of itching or irritation and there was 211 00:10:38,930 --> 00:10:35,300 only one camera on this occasion and I 212 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:38,940 saw Katie put her finger up to her eye 213 00:10:42,920 --> 00:10:41,130 and rub it and then look at her finger 214 00:10:44,930 --> 00:10:42,930 apparently something was about to happen 215 00:10:46,490 --> 00:10:44,940 near her eye and she was looking on her 216 00:10:50,180 --> 00:10:46,500 finger to see if anything came off when 217 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:50,190 she roped her eye the problem is when I 218 00:10:54,340 --> 00:10:52,050 saw her do this there was only one 219 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:54,350 camera zoomed in to get a close-up shot 220 00:10:59,319 --> 00:10:56,970 but when Katie looked at her hand she 221 00:11:01,880 --> 00:10:59,329 took her hand out of camera range and 222 00:11:03,290 --> 00:11:01,890 then she put her hand back on her eye to 223 00:11:05,570 --> 00:11:03,300 rub it again and then sudden 224 00:11:08,269 --> 00:11:05,580 something on our eye now I know she 225 00:11:12,530 --> 00:11:08,279 didn't dip her hand into some golden 226 00:11:14,540 --> 00:11:12,540 foil there was none and what that means 227 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:14,550 is that the one record that I've been 228 00:11:18,019 --> 00:11:16,170 able to get in as far as I know the only 229 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:18,029 record that exists of the foil actually 230 00:11:21,590 --> 00:11:20,130 appearing is somewhat compromised as 231 00:11:23,720 --> 00:11:21,600 evidence because you don't you don't 232 00:11:26,300 --> 00:11:23,730 really see the whole picture always the 233 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:26,310 way you know you photograph a UFO and 234 00:11:31,940 --> 00:11:27,930 boom you're out of range or your 235 00:11:34,220 --> 00:11:31,950 battery's dead or yes but you made a 236 00:11:37,340 --> 00:11:34,230 great point in your book too that the 237 00:11:40,490 --> 00:11:37,350 reason the paranormal stays paranormal 238 00:11:43,970 --> 00:11:40,500 is that it is so sporadic you just can't 239 00:11:45,110 --> 00:11:43,980 ever nail it down this is a perfect 240 00:11:47,210 --> 00:11:45,120 example 241 00:11:54,970 --> 00:11:47,220 I mean I'm quite sure this woman does 242 00:12:05,750 --> 00:11:54,980 have this whatever this unique but you 243 00:12:09,530 --> 00:12:05,760 know so you know this one's one of a 244 00:12:12,590 --> 00:12:09,540 kind there have been other cases of 245 00:12:15,650 --> 00:12:12,600 people whose bodies would erupt in oils 246 00:12:17,150 --> 00:12:15,660 or something like that what's 247 00:12:18,680 --> 00:12:17,160 interesting about this I mean a lot of 248 00:12:22,790 --> 00:12:18,690 people thought it looked like Katie was 249 00:12:25,310 --> 00:12:22,800 sweating the foil but that there are 250 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:25,320 several reasons why I reject that one is 251 00:12:29,660 --> 00:12:26,730 that she'd have to have lethal amounts 252 00:12:31,579 --> 00:12:29,670 of copper and zinc in her system none of 253 00:12:34,639 --> 00:12:31,589 the medical tests ever done on Katie 254 00:12:36,620 --> 00:12:34,649 showed anything like that and secondly 255 00:12:38,780 --> 00:12:36,630 sometimes the foil apparently appeared 256 00:12:42,319 --> 00:12:38,790 in objects around the room and on her 257 00:12:45,829 --> 00:12:42,329 clothing now I have to say I didn't see 258 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:45,839 that happen but a number of other 259 00:12:51,610 --> 00:12:47,970 witnesses did and I have no reason to 260 00:12:54,380 --> 00:12:51,620 doubt their testimony Katie still living 261 00:12:56,329 --> 00:12:54,390 you know I lost touch with Katie when 262 00:12:57,769 --> 00:12:56,339 Burt Schwartz her main investigator died 263 00:12:59,900 --> 00:12:57,779 a few years ago 264 00:13:02,210 --> 00:12:59,910 what I heard shortly before that is that 265 00:13:04,220 --> 00:13:02,220 she had been in a protracted drunken 266 00:13:05,630 --> 00:13:04,230 stupor with her husband which apparently 267 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:05,640 happened periodically in the 268 00:13:12,740 --> 00:13:10,050 relationship she sounds like a very 269 00:13:16,580 --> 00:13:12,750 disturbed person no she was actually a 270 00:13:20,300 --> 00:13:16,590 really nifty person she yeah but I 271 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:20,310 because of her lack of education and for 272 00:13:22,970 --> 00:13:21,810 all I know other reasons too she felt 273 00:13:25,130 --> 00:13:22,980 trapped in the marriage you didn't 274 00:13:30,010 --> 00:13:25,140 really feel that she could be as 275 00:13:38,210 --> 00:13:33,140 well you know lethal relationships can 276 00:13:40,430 --> 00:13:38,220 be very difficult to get out of one of 277 00:13:42,500 --> 00:13:40,440 those but Katie I think was actually a 278 00:13:44,660 --> 00:13:42,510 very well-grounded person she just had 279 00:13:47,090 --> 00:13:44,670 these remarkable abilities okay 280 00:13:50,630 --> 00:13:47,100 the papers that she wrote these 281 00:13:53,450 --> 00:13:50,640 quatrains on where are they have you 282 00:13:56,450 --> 00:13:53,460 been able to preserve them did Burt 283 00:14:00,410 --> 00:13:56,460 Schwarz preserve them what happened to 284 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:00,420 them I don't have the originals Bert's 285 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:04,770 articles were all scanned and made 286 00:14:12,500 --> 00:14:09,450 available to various people on DVDs I 287 00:14:15,890 --> 00:14:12,510 have them so they were many of the 288 00:14:19,420 --> 00:14:15,900 papers were photographed and published 289 00:14:23,300 --> 00:14:19,430 but I don't know where the originals are 290 00:14:27,050 --> 00:14:23,310 just I believe I remember you had having 291 00:14:30,020 --> 00:14:27,060 written that the gold foil was analyzed 292 00:14:34,310 --> 00:14:30,030 yes yes that's how we know it's brass 293 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:34,320 yeah but I also had the structure looked 294 00:14:38,660 --> 00:14:36,410 at it was funny I took it to the 295 00:14:42,110 --> 00:14:38,670 material science department at Johns 296 00:14:43,220 --> 00:14:42,120 Hopkins and the chair of the department 297 00:14:45,260 --> 00:14:43,230 and some of his colleagues were 298 00:14:46,490 --> 00:14:45,270 certainly fascinated by the case and I 299 00:14:49,730 --> 00:14:46,500 asked them to take a look at the foil 300 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:49,740 and see what what we had there and what 301 00:14:53,390 --> 00:14:51,330 they determined and what has 302 00:14:55,970 --> 00:14:53,400 subsequently been confirmed by some 303 00:14:58,250 --> 00:14:55,980 analytical chemists I also took it - is 304 00:15:01,130 --> 00:14:58,260 that the foil is virtually identical to 305 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:01,140 stuff you can buy in art supply stores 306 00:15:07,250 --> 00:15:04,170 that's called Dutch metal or composition 307 00:15:09,170 --> 00:15:07,260 leaf it's a kind of cheap version of 308 00:15:10,820 --> 00:15:09,180 gold leaf that you see on picture frames 309 00:15:15,020 --> 00:15:10,830 so if you want to do something like that 310 00:15:20,060 --> 00:15:15,030 but not actually buy gold this is an 311 00:15:22,850 --> 00:15:20,070 alternative way to go now that's 312 00:15:25,580 --> 00:15:22,860 interesting but it doesn't really help 313 00:15:28,010 --> 00:15:25,590 us figure out what's going on the thing 314 00:15:29,690 --> 00:15:28,020 is that the guys at Johns Hopkins lost 315 00:15:30,439 --> 00:15:29,700 interest immediately when they realize 316 00:15:32,539 --> 00:15:30,449 that 317 00:15:37,159 --> 00:15:32,549 this structure of the foil was just 318 00:15:38,780 --> 00:15:37,169 regular old brass leaf and they were 319 00:15:41,629 --> 00:15:38,790 making the assumption which i think is 320 00:15:43,909 --> 00:15:41,639 false that it was paranormally produced 321 00:15:45,919 --> 00:15:43,919 it had to be wildly an anomalous when 322 00:15:48,799 --> 00:15:45,929 you looked at its structure but that 323 00:15:51,409 --> 00:15:48,809 doesn't follow at all it's just I 324 00:15:53,509 --> 00:15:51,419 believe what you call an airport is 325 00:15:55,729 --> 00:15:53,519 something that was transported from 326 00:15:58,489 --> 00:15:55,739 elsewhere that's what I was hoping to 327 00:16:01,369 --> 00:15:58,499 determine by having it looked at by some 328 00:16:03,259 --> 00:16:01,379 analytical chemists I had I started 329 00:16:05,359 --> 00:16:03,269 having people look at about 30 different 330 00:16:08,979 --> 00:16:05,369 samples of foil taken from Katie and 331 00:16:10,999 --> 00:16:08,989 then I gave them some control samples of 332 00:16:13,189 --> 00:16:11,009 composition leaf purchased them to 333 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:13,199 Maryland Pennsylvania area and then we 334 00:16:20,900 --> 00:16:17,850 were going to compare it to foil taken 335 00:16:23,090 --> 00:16:20,910 from the area around Florida to see if 336 00:16:25,129 --> 00:16:23,100 it looked more like one than the other 337 00:16:28,999 --> 00:16:25,139 but for various reasons I described in 338 00:16:33,949 --> 00:16:29,009 the book that laborious analysis was 339 00:16:36,829 --> 00:16:33,959 never completed okay and Katie was not a 340 00:16:39,379 --> 00:16:36,839 willing I mean she didn't will this to 341 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:39,389 happen this was not not consciously 342 00:16:43,519 --> 00:16:41,970 certainly great it was an affliction you 343 00:16:44,929 --> 00:16:43,529 know she could go to the 7-eleven and 344 00:16:46,579 --> 00:16:44,939 try to buy something and while she was 345 00:16:52,099 --> 00:16:46,589 checking out the foil could appear on 346 00:16:56,389 --> 00:16:52,109 her face she would imagine not which 347 00:17:00,590 --> 00:16:56,399 brings us to the question of volition in 348 00:17:03,289 --> 00:17:00,600 certain of these cases of various things 349 00:17:08,210 --> 00:17:03,299 happening to people such as levitation 350 00:17:13,009 --> 00:17:08,220 or ports or things of this nature and if 351 00:17:16,549 --> 00:17:13,019 something is volitional like I guess DD 352 00:17:20,769 --> 00:17:16,559 Hume was volitionally levitating as 353 00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:20,779 opposed to the young lady in the Enfield 354 00:17:30,169 --> 00:17:26,720 case of the or even Joseph you know or 355 00:17:33,940 --> 00:17:30,179 other saints both Catholic saints and 356 00:17:38,230 --> 00:17:33,950 Hindu Saints have been seen levitating 357 00:17:42,019 --> 00:17:38,240 so if it's not volitional is it a 358 00:17:43,410 --> 00:17:42,029 poltergeist type activity energies built 359 00:17:48,170 --> 00:17:43,420 up within the person 360 00:17:50,940 --> 00:17:48,180 or is it a third party and in an 361 00:17:53,430 --> 00:17:50,950 invisible party if you will I mean what 362 00:17:57,390 --> 00:17:53,440 are the options there well those are two 363 00:17:58,800 --> 00:17:57,400 of the main options it's really hard to 364 00:18:01,440 --> 00:17:58,810 know I mean it's not as if you can go 365 00:18:04,770 --> 00:18:01,450 around with a PK meter and figure out 366 00:18:06,690 --> 00:18:04,780 where the cause the lines really are and 367 00:18:09,510 --> 00:18:06,700 it's one of the frustrating things about 368 00:18:11,010 --> 00:18:09,520 studying psychic functioning and one of 369 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:11,020 the reasons I've been arguing for 370 00:18:15,120 --> 00:18:12,970 decades now that it's premature to bring 371 00:18:17,490 --> 00:18:15,130 it into the lab because we have no idea 372 00:18:19,740 --> 00:18:17,500 what the role of psychic functioning in 373 00:18:21,750 --> 00:18:19,750 life really is I mean people have lots 374 00:18:23,790 --> 00:18:21,760 of ideas about that but we don't know 375 00:18:26,580 --> 00:18:23,800 what it's natural history is you know we 376 00:18:28,170 --> 00:18:26,590 can study to some extent memory under 377 00:18:29,850 --> 00:18:28,180 laboratory conditions because we have 378 00:18:32,010 --> 00:18:29,860 some idea what memory is in day to day 379 00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:32,020 life but we don't know what the natural 380 00:18:35,250 --> 00:18:33,610 history of psychic functioning is we 381 00:18:38,670 --> 00:18:35,260 don't know you know there's no way to 382 00:18:41,670 --> 00:18:38,680 tell the difference between a car crash 383 00:18:43,350 --> 00:18:41,680 caused by normal forces or one produced 384 00:18:44,910 --> 00:18:43,360 psycho kinetically the only difference 385 00:18:47,010 --> 00:18:44,920 as far as we know could be in their 386 00:18:50,700 --> 00:18:47,020 underlying causal histories which are 387 00:18:54,720 --> 00:18:50,710 unobservable right right so until we get 388 00:18:57,030 --> 00:18:54,730 a handle on what kind of voluntary and 389 00:18:59,430 --> 00:18:57,040 involuntary roles I might be playing in 390 00:19:00,720 --> 00:18:59,440 life we really don't know what it is 391 00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:00,730 we're trying to bring into the lab and 392 00:19:06,090 --> 00:19:02,710 whether what we're bringing into the lab 393 00:19:07,620 --> 00:19:06,100 is inappropriate for even being studied 394 00:19:09,930 --> 00:19:07,630 there much in the way that sensuality 395 00:19:12,660 --> 00:19:09,940 would be inappropriate to study under 396 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:12,670 lab conditions or athletic abilities all 397 00:19:17,100 --> 00:19:14,890 right all right yeah I don't think it's 398 00:19:18,690 --> 00:19:17,110 something you really can you know 399 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:18,700 obviously you can't put it in a test 400 00:19:24,420 --> 00:19:20,050 tube and I'm not sure you know 401 00:19:27,570 --> 00:19:24,430 micrograms per whatever but I think it 402 00:19:29,340 --> 00:19:27,580 should be so I think there's a lot one 403 00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:29,350 of the reasons I think paranormal should 404 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:31,510 be studied a lot more is because there 405 00:19:35,730 --> 00:19:33,850 is a lot about so-called science that we 406 00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:35,740 don't know and that that's the gateway 407 00:19:40,980 --> 00:19:39,130 to it I really believe that this thing 408 00:19:44,370 --> 00:19:40,990 happened to this woman for whatever 409 00:19:46,710 --> 00:19:44,380 reason and but there are some volitional 410 00:19:48,750 --> 00:19:46,720 cases a good friend of mine had PK 411 00:19:51,540 --> 00:19:48,760 ability and could move things that will 412 00:19:55,650 --> 00:19:51,550 do and whenever issues to do it as a 413 00:19:56,850 --> 00:19:55,660 joke actually you know just to see 414 00:19:58,740 --> 00:19:56,860 people's reaction 415 00:20:00,389 --> 00:19:58,750 she still laugh about it but yes she 416 00:20:02,909 --> 00:20:00,399 definitely she never thought it was 417 00:20:05,310 --> 00:20:02,919 anything unusual she thought everybody 418 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:05,320 had that ability but the thing is once 419 00:20:12,299 --> 00:20:09,490 you allow any PK to exist no matter how 420 00:20:15,570 --> 00:20:12,309 apparently insignificant it opens a kind 421 00:20:17,759 --> 00:20:15,580 of Pandora's box so if if somebody can 422 00:20:20,070 --> 00:20:17,769 move a compass needle or a cigarette a 423 00:20:22,169 --> 00:20:20,080 millimeter by thought alone mm-hmm it's 424 00:20:23,940 --> 00:20:22,179 a very small step conceptually from 425 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:23,950 doing that to making somebody drop dead 426 00:20:28,110 --> 00:20:25,090 by thought alone ah 427 00:20:32,909 --> 00:20:28,120 and so say I'm spokesperson for the 428 00:20:35,940 --> 00:20:32,919 darkside so the existence of any 429 00:20:38,279 --> 00:20:35,950 psychokinesis at all forces us to take 430 00:20:40,230 --> 00:20:38,289 seriously a kind of magical worldview 431 00:20:42,360 --> 00:20:40,240 that most of us associate usually 432 00:20:44,129 --> 00:20:42,370 condescendingly only with so-called 433 00:20:46,500 --> 00:20:44,139 primitive cultures and it's a worldview 434 00:20:48,870 --> 00:20:46,510 where thoughts can kill or have other 435 00:20:50,580 --> 00:20:48,880 sorts of nasty consequences and in which 436 00:20:52,649 --> 00:20:50,590 we might have to bear responsibility for 437 00:20:56,340 --> 00:20:52,659 a range of things we would just as soon 438 00:21:01,039 --> 00:20:56,350 be bystanders for what about the six 439 00:21:02,250 --> 00:21:01,049 percent Steve that intention plays 440 00:21:04,259 --> 00:21:02,260 purportedly 441 00:21:07,259 --> 00:21:04,269 I don't know if it's Dean Radin or 442 00:21:09,870 --> 00:21:07,269 somebody of that nature has seemed to 443 00:21:12,659 --> 00:21:09,880 have come up with the idea that you can 444 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:12,669 influence things ordinary people can 445 00:21:19,259 --> 00:21:15,090 influence things by six percent by 446 00:21:23,639 --> 00:21:19,269 intention and have you heard about that 447 00:21:25,250 --> 00:21:23,649 is that actually the thing is we don't 448 00:21:27,750 --> 00:21:25,260 know what people can do unconsciously 449 00:21:32,340 --> 00:21:27,760 with room when all restraints are 450 00:21:38,639 --> 00:21:32,350 removed when our usual sense sensors are 451 00:21:42,620 --> 00:21:38,649 not even in play hmm well its ported Lee 452 00:21:45,570 --> 00:21:42,630 said that anybody who intends towards a 453 00:21:47,430 --> 00:21:45,580 reasonable goal or even an you know high 454 00:21:49,860 --> 00:21:47,440 goal like you know if I wanted to be a 455 00:21:52,169 --> 00:21:49,870 movie actress or something I can push 456 00:21:55,710 --> 00:21:52,179 things six percent in that direction 457 00:21:58,409 --> 00:21:55,720 even if I am not particularly psychic 458 00:22:02,340 --> 00:21:58,419 but just have a reasonable amount of 459 00:22:06,629 --> 00:22:02,350 focus and if you add five people all 460 00:22:08,420 --> 00:22:06,639 doing the same thing you know it but 461 00:22:09,950 --> 00:22:08,430 does that multiply it 462 00:22:11,870 --> 00:22:09,960 that's just it this is just a 463 00:22:14,120 --> 00:22:11,880 hypothetical question I don't expect I 464 00:22:18,650 --> 00:22:14,130 think it does like the cheering crowds 465 00:22:21,260 --> 00:22:18,660 that a home team definitely yes you see 466 00:22:23,900 --> 00:22:21,270 the elections going on now certainly a 467 00:22:36,500 --> 00:22:23,910 lot of people getting together and you 468 00:22:38,390 --> 00:22:36,510 know back in one can old argument that 469 00:22:40,370 --> 00:22:38,400 if thoughts could kill how come Hitler 470 00:22:42,410 --> 00:22:40,380 lived so long well because I don't think 471 00:22:44,690 --> 00:22:42,420 a lot of people were willing to kill him 472 00:22:46,370 --> 00:22:44,700 I think the number of people willing to 473 00:22:48,770 --> 00:22:46,380 kill him were much less than the ones 474 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:48,780 that were not the immediate people 475 00:22:52,850 --> 00:22:51,210 surrounding him well that's why I don't 476 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:52,860 think it's some sort of simple 477 00:22:57,050 --> 00:22:55,650 calculation by in terms of the number of 478 00:23:00,830 --> 00:22:57,060 people who might share the same 479 00:23:03,380 --> 00:23:00,840 intention because you know if intentions 480 00:23:06,110 --> 00:23:03,390 both conscious and unconscious can be 481 00:23:08,780 --> 00:23:06,120 efficacious in the world then there's 482 00:23:12,380 --> 00:23:08,790 going to be this unobservable but 483 00:23:15,890 --> 00:23:12,390 presumably immeasurably vast underlying 484 00:23:18,740 --> 00:23:15,900 network of potentially sigh conducive 485 00:23:21,590 --> 00:23:18,750 intentions going on criss-crossing one 486 00:23:23,210 --> 00:23:21,600 another canceling each other out well 487 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:23,220 look what gurgles did with the 488 00:23:30,830 --> 00:23:25,530 propaganda in that era I think he was 489 00:23:32,990 --> 00:23:30,840 just opening up that whole area and I 490 00:23:38,950 --> 00:23:33,000 think he was sort of a genius and he won 491 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:43,100 it's a borderline psychological and as I 492 00:23:47,420 --> 00:23:45,210 get go well I think I think that Steve's 493 00:23:50,750 --> 00:23:47,430 point is that where does one begin and 494 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:50,760 where does the other lay out in terms of 495 00:23:58,640 --> 00:23:54,170 in terms of studying sigh functioning 496 00:24:01,120 --> 00:23:58,650 perhaps a better group of individuals to 497 00:24:06,380 --> 00:24:01,130 study it rather than laboratory 498 00:24:08,330 --> 00:24:06,390 psychology would be anthropology or even 499 00:24:11,180 --> 00:24:08,340 physics what do you think about that 500 00:24:13,010 --> 00:24:11,190 well I think what parapsychology really 501 00:24:15,970 --> 00:24:13,020 needs is more people like the late 502 00:24:19,100 --> 00:24:15,980 Julian but people who have a nose for 503 00:24:21,310 --> 00:24:19,110 subtle regularities in the world 504 00:24:24,590 --> 00:24:21,320 Heisenberg was a psychiatrist and 505 00:24:26,779 --> 00:24:24,600 unusually perceptive individual and I've 506 00:24:29,509 --> 00:24:26,789 often thought that one of the best 507 00:24:32,869 --> 00:24:29,519 natural groups for study if you want to 508 00:24:34,639 --> 00:24:32,879 understand the natural history of psy is 509 00:24:38,180 --> 00:24:34,649 to look at people who are incredibly 510 00:24:41,389 --> 00:24:38,190 lucky or unlucky because this is a way 511 00:24:44,539 --> 00:24:41,399 in which I think our size might be 512 00:24:46,159 --> 00:24:44,549 marshaled for good or for harm you know 513 00:24:48,049 --> 00:24:46,169 this isn't there's an old Yiddish 514 00:24:51,859 --> 00:24:48,059 distinction between a schlemiel and a 515 00:24:54,139 --> 00:24:51,869 schlemazel michl emil was somebody who 516 00:24:57,619 --> 00:24:54,149 spilled soup on himself and schlemazel 517 00:25:00,590 --> 00:24:57,629 has it's built on him so the idea is 518 00:25:02,570 --> 00:25:00,600 that ashley mazels are unlucky souls 519 00:25:05,810 --> 00:25:02,580 people that the universe is crapping on 520 00:25:08,330 --> 00:25:05,820 you know people who are victims of 521 00:25:10,999 --> 00:25:08,340 impersonal forces where the universe at 522 00:25:19,489 --> 00:25:11,009 large and schlemazel really exists I was 523 00:25:22,789 --> 00:25:19,499 actually married to a you don't want to 524 00:25:25,100 --> 00:25:22,799 put that on audio for the posterity of 525 00:25:26,749 --> 00:25:25,110 the internet I don't think actually your 526 00:25:28,519 --> 00:25:26,759 entire family was a lightning rod for 527 00:25:31,070 --> 00:25:28,529 misfortune but that's another story 528 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:31,080 did they have bad self images just being 529 00:25:34,639 --> 00:25:33,210 you know I'm I'm a psychic reader so 530 00:25:37,549 --> 00:25:34,649 beat for me to be the devil's advocate 531 00:25:39,919 --> 00:25:37,559 is rather odd but did they have negative 532 00:25:41,419 --> 00:25:39,929 self images do you think I think yeah to 533 00:25:45,220 --> 00:25:41,429 some extent and so I think that this 534 00:25:47,869 --> 00:25:45,230 kind of unluckiness is a kind of 535 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:47,879 externalized analog to psychosomatic 536 00:25:54,830 --> 00:25:51,330 ailments and i live next door to some 537 00:25:57,230 --> 00:25:54,840 muslims at one point I'd like to know if 538 00:25:58,789 --> 00:25:57,240 they were so mazels before they met and 539 00:26:01,519 --> 00:25:58,799 got married and there's no way to find 540 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:01,529 that out now but there's no doubt that 541 00:26:05,570 --> 00:26:03,570 their life was a together was a living 542 00:26:06,919 --> 00:26:05,580 hell of aggravation and annoyances it 543 00:26:09,859 --> 00:26:06,929 seemed like everything they bought was 544 00:26:13,070 --> 00:26:09,869 defective their cars were in the shop 545 00:26:15,889 --> 00:26:13,080 even though they both drove brands noted 546 00:26:17,570 --> 00:26:15,899 for their reliability electronic 547 00:26:20,629 --> 00:26:17,580 equipment would fail to work right out 548 00:26:22,399 --> 00:26:20,639 of the box a solid wooden rocking chair 549 00:26:25,220 --> 00:26:22,409 bought the second day they had it with 550 00:26:27,019 --> 00:26:25,230 their infant son on board and my 551 00:26:29,930 --> 00:26:27,029 favorite example of their slow Mazel 552 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:29,940 Nassif that's even worse is that the 553 00:26:33,690 --> 00:26:31,570 wife bought a poster sized photo 554 00:26:35,430 --> 00:26:33,700 graph of what she thought was the Golden 555 00:26:37,470 --> 00:26:35,440 Gate Bridge and she had it framed and 556 00:26:39,270 --> 00:26:37,480 put on her living room wall and I had to 557 00:26:42,780 --> 00:26:39,280 tell her Donna that's the Brooklyn 558 00:26:44,790 --> 00:26:42,790 Bridge so here's a woman who both 559 00:26:46,770 --> 00:26:44,800 symbolically and literally bought the 560 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:46,780 Brooklyn Bridge which maybe some of your 561 00:26:52,230 --> 00:26:48,850 younger listeners don't know that that's 562 00:26:56,030 --> 00:26:52,240 an old image of what the Brooklyn Bridge 563 00:26:59,130 --> 00:26:56,040 indeed is so symbolic that's perfect 564 00:27:00,180 --> 00:26:59,140 that's absolutely perfect that is a 565 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:00,190 funny story 566 00:27:06,360 --> 00:27:03,250 getting back perhaps at this juncture in 567 00:27:09,090 --> 00:27:06,370 the in the interview you you would like 568 00:27:11,970 --> 00:27:09,100 to mention some of the names of your 569 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:11,980 books for our listeners too and and one 570 00:27:16,710 --> 00:27:14,410 of your books on Amazon cost four 571 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:16,720 hundred and sixty three dollars whoa 572 00:27:30,420 --> 00:27:26,890 yeah half the price perhaps it I think 573 00:27:32,340 --> 00:27:30,430 it's the influence the know you can find 574 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:32,350 the limits of influence in addition for 575 00:27:39,180 --> 00:27:36,610 under $40 well I just happen it's always 576 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:39,190 really impressive when you see that 577 00:27:45,510 --> 00:27:41,890 somebody's a living authors books are 578 00:27:54,290 --> 00:27:45,520 right over $100 I mean that's what I 579 00:27:58,890 --> 00:27:56,700 my first book is called ESPN 580 00:28:00,990 --> 00:27:58,900 psychokinesis which I now think of as a 581 00:28:03,570 --> 00:28:01,000 kind of immature work at dealt mostly 582 00:28:07,730 --> 00:28:03,580 with laboratory evidence in 583 00:28:09,870 --> 00:28:07,740 parapsychology before I had moved on to 584 00:28:12,300 --> 00:28:09,880 more interesting and I think more 585 00:28:14,820 --> 00:28:12,310 relevant kinds of manifestations of sigh 586 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:14,830 so my second book was that when you just 587 00:28:19,170 --> 00:28:17,170 mentioned the limits of influence which 588 00:28:23,550 --> 00:28:19,180 deals primarily with physical mediumship 589 00:28:25,260 --> 00:28:23,560 or macro pique then I took a little 590 00:28:26,940 --> 00:28:25,270 detour and wrote a book on multiple 591 00:28:28,710 --> 00:28:26,950 personality and the philosophy of mind 592 00:28:31,530 --> 00:28:28,720 that book is called first-person plural 593 00:28:33,180 --> 00:28:31,540 and the reason I did that was I knew at 594 00:28:36,570 --> 00:28:33,190 some point I wanted to write a book on 595 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:36,580 the evidence for survival of death but I 596 00:28:41,220 --> 00:28:38,770 also knew that a lot of what you see in 597 00:28:42,810 --> 00:28:41,230 cases a multiple personality looks a 598 00:28:44,940 --> 00:28:42,820 whole lot like what you see in some 599 00:28:46,350 --> 00:28:44,950 cases of mediumship or channeling 600 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:46,360 so I figured I wouldn't be able to do a 601 00:28:50,850 --> 00:28:48,730 responsible job of writing about the 602 00:28:52,950 --> 00:28:50,860 evidence for survival until I really 603 00:28:54,990 --> 00:28:52,960 knew a lot about dissociation 604 00:28:58,110 --> 00:28:55,000 multiplicity the history of hypnosis and 605 00:29:01,320 --> 00:28:58,120 that whole cluster of issues it is a 606 00:29:05,130 --> 00:29:01,330 very interesting topic especially when 607 00:29:07,170 --> 00:29:05,140 physical changes are seen in the subject 608 00:29:09,780 --> 00:29:07,180 when they're transferring from one 609 00:29:12,930 --> 00:29:09,790 personality to another absolutely 610 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:12,940 interesting and so much like what you 611 00:29:17,820 --> 00:29:14,770 see in some cases of mediumship that 612 00:29:21,900 --> 00:29:17,830 even if the two turn out to be distinct 613 00:29:23,670 --> 00:29:21,910 phenomena it's not just a purely 614 00:29:25,830 --> 00:29:23,680 academic issue it's one that needs to be 615 00:29:27,450 --> 00:29:25,840 addressed competently and one of my 616 00:29:29,340 --> 00:29:27,460 disappointments with the general 617 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:29,350 literature on survival is that the 618 00:29:33,090 --> 00:29:31,090 people who really write on survival are 619 00:29:36,150 --> 00:29:33,100 empirically myopic they really haven't a 620 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:36,160 clue what the Associated relevant issues 621 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:39,970 in abnormal psychology are so then I 622 00:29:43,740 --> 00:29:42,010 wrote my book on survival by that time I 623 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:43,750 was chronologically challenged enough 624 00:29:59,460 --> 00:29:54,600 well that brings me to another again to 625 00:30:03,600 --> 00:29:59,470 speak about the idea of a an unseen 626 00:30:06,180 --> 00:30:03,610 party because you know I work as a 627 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:06,190 psychic reader and I'm not making any 628 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:09,130 vast claims but I do speak to lots and 629 00:30:16,230 --> 00:30:13,570 lots of people and often about survival 630 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:16,240 issues though I am NOT a trance medium 631 00:30:21,870 --> 00:30:19,090 sometimes I get quote-unquote messages 632 00:30:24,900 --> 00:30:21,880 from somewhere I don't know where and I 633 00:30:27,810 --> 00:30:24,910 transmit them to the people but 634 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:27,820 sometimes people come to me and they 635 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:30,570 have things going on that seem somewhat 636 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:36,010 malevolent in nature and I like to point 637 00:30:41,940 --> 00:30:38,650 out to them that when somebody appears 638 00:30:44,250 --> 00:30:41,950 to them in their dreams or even in a 639 00:30:47,310 --> 00:30:44,260 vision of sorts and says it's their 640 00:30:50,340 --> 00:30:47,320 grandmother it doesn't necessarily mean 641 00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:50,350 it is their grandmother correct and so 642 00:30:57,510 --> 00:30:53,170 there's that edgy sort of thing going on 643 00:30:58,800 --> 00:30:57,520 and and this comes when we begin to talk 644 00:31:02,370 --> 00:30:58,810 here we do talk here 645 00:31:05,790 --> 00:31:02,380 about UFOs somewhat frequently because 646 00:31:07,830 --> 00:31:05,800 Kate had a show before this show called 647 00:31:11,630 --> 00:31:07,840 the Kate Valentine UFO show which is 648 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:11,640 still available on the Internet but 649 00:31:21,210 --> 00:31:17,050 often the purported denizens of the UFOs 650 00:31:25,230 --> 00:31:21,220 would give information to the contactees 651 00:31:28,050 --> 00:31:25,240 or the experiencers and that information 652 00:31:31,830 --> 00:31:28,060 would be like true up to a point and 653 00:31:33,930 --> 00:31:31,840 then it would be like lies and I noticed 654 00:31:38,220 --> 00:31:33,940 and witnessed the same sort of thing 655 00:31:42,030 --> 00:31:38,230 with people who have had experiences 656 00:31:44,730 --> 00:31:42,040 with these sorts of visions of the 657 00:31:48,030 --> 00:31:44,740 purportedly deceased and I'm very 658 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:48,040 careful to tell my clients that you know 659 00:31:54,540 --> 00:31:52,810 it may not be your aunt Ruthy well one 660 00:31:57,480 --> 00:31:54,550 of the things that's interested me about 661 00:32:01,770 --> 00:31:57,490 various cases of mediumship is that it 662 00:32:04,710 --> 00:32:01,780 in many cases the messages that come 663 00:32:08,460 --> 00:32:04,720 through ostensibly from deceased 664 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:08,470 individuals and so the messages that the 665 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:10,930 medium delivers are the kinds of things 666 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:14,410 which would be risky for the medium 667 00:32:20,610 --> 00:32:17,050 herself to say as if they were coming 668 00:32:23,010 --> 00:32:20,620 from his or her own mind um a good 669 00:32:25,260 --> 00:32:23,020 example of that is a case I wrote about 670 00:32:27,660 --> 00:32:25,270 and immortal remains it's a case called 671 00:32:32,270 --> 00:32:27,670 patients Worth where this st. Louis 672 00:32:36,980 --> 00:32:32,280 housewife in the 1920s was channeling 673 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:36,990 literary works and various kinds of 674 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:40,650 radical opinions about feminism the 675 00:32:48,630 --> 00:32:44,770 emptiness of organized religion and the 676 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:48,640 evils of formal education things that if 677 00:32:51,930 --> 00:32:50,410 she had expressed his opinions herself 678 00:32:54,380 --> 00:32:51,940 she would have been roundly condemned 679 00:32:58,950 --> 00:32:54,390 but coming coming from patients Worth 680 00:33:01,170 --> 00:32:58,960 this character the the medium pearl 681 00:33:02,730 --> 00:33:01,180 Curran could disavow responsibility for 682 00:33:04,380 --> 00:33:02,740 it and I think that's one of the 683 00:33:05,910 --> 00:33:04,390 important things about mediumship that 684 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:05,920 is so long as you truly believe you're a 685 00:33:10,529 --> 00:33:08,890 medium then you're off the hook no 686 00:33:13,830 --> 00:33:10,539 matter what's coming 687 00:33:15,570 --> 00:33:13,840 or even if nothing happens you don't 688 00:33:17,850 --> 00:33:15,580 have to take any responsibility for 689 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:17,860 successes or failures or even for the 690 00:33:22,220 --> 00:33:19,690 content of the messages you can always 691 00:33:24,509 --> 00:33:22,230 attribute it to some mischievous 692 00:33:27,899 --> 00:33:24,519 communicator on the other side or to a 693 00:33:31,830 --> 00:33:27,909 weak link on the other side and so on so 694 00:33:33,930 --> 00:33:31,840 your so your point here is that that 695 00:33:36,269 --> 00:33:33,940 that might the person might have a 696 00:33:39,029 --> 00:33:36,279 subliminal desire to say these things 697 00:33:43,259 --> 00:33:39,039 the actual medium and uses this as a 698 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:43,269 safe method of saying somewhat difficult 699 00:33:48,419 --> 00:33:46,210 things or not in all cases certainly but 700 00:33:51,629 --> 00:33:48,429 in some I think so and then I think we 701 00:33:53,879 --> 00:33:51,639 need for that reason to look very 702 00:33:57,029 --> 00:33:53,889 sensitively what might be going on 703 00:33:58,499 --> 00:33:57,039 analogous to that in other cases so in 704 00:34:03,659 --> 00:33:58,509 other words if you wanted to tell 705 00:34:09,750 --> 00:34:03,669 someone their shamil and get out yes 706 00:34:11,159 --> 00:34:09,760 after all its being you know I was 707 00:34:13,559 --> 00:34:11,169 wondering if I could just go back to 708 00:34:15,210 --> 00:34:13,569 what you said a while ago and you were 709 00:34:18,510 --> 00:34:15,220 saying how some of these sigh 710 00:34:21,059 --> 00:34:18,520 occurrences are much more acceptable and 711 00:34:23,220 --> 00:34:21,069 what would be called primitive societies 712 00:34:26,490 --> 00:34:23,230 so that you're saying actually that 713 00:34:28,889 --> 00:34:26,500 social contracts really limit the 714 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:28,899 ability to understand some of these song 715 00:34:33,329 --> 00:34:29,490 effects 716 00:34:35,369 --> 00:34:33,339 that's an interesting yeah I mean if it 717 00:34:38,190 --> 00:34:35,379 turns out that this so-called primitive 718 00:34:41,490 --> 00:34:38,200 view of the way the world works is in 719 00:34:46,050 --> 00:34:41,500 many ways closer to its than the 720 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:46,060 mechanistic scientific worldview yes 721 00:34:49,889 --> 00:34:47,770 life gets a whole lot more interesting 722 00:34:52,109 --> 00:34:49,899 so that that actually would probably be 723 00:34:53,909 --> 00:34:52,119 the place to start if I don't think 724 00:34:56,609 --> 00:34:53,919 there's any in quotes primitive 725 00:34:58,800 --> 00:34:56,619 societies left but not with the advent 726 00:35:00,089 --> 00:34:58,810 and what do you think about the Internet 727 00:35:02,819 --> 00:35:00,099 but I mean that that's a whole other 728 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:02,829 question but but I don't think you could 729 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:05,290 find someone that was really considered 730 00:35:13,220 --> 00:35:07,810 primitive and untouched and but yeah 731 00:35:23,359 --> 00:35:21,900 where there are but I mean I think it's 732 00:35:25,519 --> 00:35:23,369 sort of like you know 733 00:35:27,650 --> 00:35:25,529 you're running experiments you know I 734 00:35:29,900 --> 00:35:27,660 can quantum mechanics as soon as you see 735 00:35:33,289 --> 00:35:29,910 the experiment you've already changed it 736 00:35:35,180 --> 00:35:33,299 so just by experimenter effect yeah just 737 00:35:37,220 --> 00:35:35,190 by being I mean obviously there's no 738 00:35:41,749 --> 00:35:37,230 other way to do it but you'd almost have 739 00:35:43,970 --> 00:35:41,759 to become a member of that society and 740 00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:43,980 then join up with them later you know as 741 00:35:48,730 --> 00:35:45,930 if they found you out the jungler song I 742 00:35:51,650 --> 00:35:48,740 don't know to really be able to do that 743 00:35:55,759 --> 00:35:51,660 well but the takeaway point from all 744 00:36:00,859 --> 00:35:55,769 this I think is that if these under the 745 00:36:07,359 --> 00:36:00,869 surface malevolent or benign intentions 746 00:36:10,339 --> 00:36:07,369 can actually manifest in reality then if 747 00:36:11,230 --> 00:36:10,349 those intentions are not things we can 748 00:36:14,690 --> 00:36:11,240 control 749 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:14,700 then and if they're unconscious and I 750 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:16,650 think they're probably very difficult to 751 00:36:22,489 --> 00:36:19,410 control I think very few of us never 752 00:36:24,589 --> 00:36:22,499 have nasty thoughts so if we're capable 753 00:36:26,059 --> 00:36:24,599 of having nasty thoughts and then about 754 00:36:27,769 --> 00:36:26,069 a person and then that person has an 755 00:36:29,749 --> 00:36:27,779 accident very few people and 756 00:36:31,819 --> 00:36:29,759 industrialize or develop countries I 757 00:36:33,589 --> 00:36:31,829 think are comfortable with the idea that 758 00:36:38,259 --> 00:36:33,599 our thoughts may have had some role 759 00:36:41,150 --> 00:36:38,269 related but all this presupposes that 760 00:36:43,279 --> 00:36:41,160 there are you know that's a value 761 00:36:47,269 --> 00:36:43,289 judgment that it's a nasty thought 762 00:36:49,069 --> 00:36:47,279 nordstrom sure I mean so harmful oh you 763 00:36:51,140 --> 00:36:49,079 could say harmful but everything is 764 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:51,150 harmful to something well yeah I think 765 00:36:56,089 --> 00:36:52,890 what you're saying like if they cut you 766 00:36:57,620 --> 00:36:56,099 off and in a traffic jam and then you 767 00:36:59,269 --> 00:36:57,630 you know you really think very evil 768 00:37:03,200 --> 00:36:59,279 thoughts and their car explodes well 769 00:37:04,999 --> 00:37:03,210 that's a bad sign yeah I know what goes 770 00:37:06,819 --> 00:37:05,009 back to philosophy you know what is the 771 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:06,829 good you know and we're talking to the 772 00:37:11,420 --> 00:37:09,930 Philosopher's oh oh sorry what what did 773 00:37:17,269 --> 00:37:11,430 we call them in the beginning what did 774 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:17,279 he want to be cause the Lord but I do I 775 00:37:21,559 --> 00:37:19,410 do have there are a couple of questions 776 00:37:23,900 --> 00:37:21,569 that we do have left one of which is 777 00:37:26,349 --> 00:37:23,910 from one of our listeners which I will 778 00:37:29,410 --> 00:37:26,359 wait on until I ask my philosophical 779 00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:29,420 question I just want to bring us back 780 00:37:36,740 --> 00:37:33,450 because it it seems to pervade a lot of 781 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:36,750 these non volitional things 782 00:37:46,460 --> 00:37:42,810 when we talk about the the people who 783 00:37:51,290 --> 00:37:46,470 are having issues in their lives and 784 00:37:54,349 --> 00:37:51,300 produce perhaps piqué move things or 785 00:37:57,170 --> 00:37:54,359 things burst into fire we think that it 786 00:38:00,440 --> 00:37:57,180 could be energies built up within 787 00:38:04,609 --> 00:38:00,450 themselves when a person has a case of 788 00:38:06,650 --> 00:38:04,619 non volitional levitation if we look at 789 00:38:08,780 --> 00:38:06,660 somebody like st. Joseph we could say he 790 00:38:13,359 --> 00:38:08,790 had a lot of sexual energy built up and 791 00:38:17,030 --> 00:38:13,369 he he just flew up to the ceiling but 792 00:38:20,540 --> 00:38:17,040 can we be sure that there isn't a third 793 00:38:23,690 --> 00:38:20,550 party actor here that there isn't an 794 00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:23,700 invisible actor and when we talk about 795 00:38:29,870 --> 00:38:26,730 invisible actors and we talk about the 796 00:38:33,559 --> 00:38:29,880 unity of consciousness the unity of 797 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:33,569 beings it becomes of a real quandary to 798 00:38:40,630 --> 00:38:36,930 think about at least for my little mind 799 00:38:43,430 --> 00:38:40,640 my little struggling brain or 800 00:38:45,620 --> 00:38:43,440 consciousness here because I think about 801 00:38:50,359 --> 00:38:45,630 everybody being one all all 802 00:38:56,780 --> 00:38:50,369 consciousness is from the moon to an 803 00:38:59,569 --> 00:38:56,790 earthworm to my cat to you and me we're 804 00:39:01,700 --> 00:38:59,579 on some level we're all one so what 805 00:39:06,410 --> 00:39:01,710 about these invisible entities if they 806 00:39:09,710 --> 00:39:06,420 in fact exist and my experience kind of 807 00:39:11,780 --> 00:39:09,720 pushes me towards yeah they do exist but 808 00:39:13,730 --> 00:39:11,790 at what point that we all become one and 809 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:13,740 does it all become a moot point or to 810 00:39:21,170 --> 00:39:16,650 have a really tied things in a knot 811 00:39:25,550 --> 00:39:21,180 there Steve I'm not sure 812 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:25,560 when you say invisible entities you know 813 00:39:30,109 --> 00:39:28,530 they could be other people I mean so 814 00:39:32,089 --> 00:39:30,119 they're slow mazels instead of doing 815 00:39:35,870 --> 00:39:32,099 these things to themselves they could 816 00:39:37,940 --> 00:39:35,880 have maybe it was their wicked next-door 817 00:39:43,339 --> 00:39:37,950 neighbor philosopher who was doing it to 818 00:39:47,540 --> 00:39:43,349 them I'm really nice deeply I'm we've 819 00:39:50,050 --> 00:39:47,550 been really nice to you yeah I'm very 820 00:39:53,900 --> 00:39:50,060 happy with you not 821 00:39:58,760 --> 00:39:53,910 so so if you're meaning something other 822 00:40:00,680 --> 00:39:58,770 than another human mind I know we don't 823 00:40:02,780 --> 00:40:00,690 have any independent confirmation that 824 00:40:04,430 --> 00:40:02,790 there are such and I think the only way 825 00:40:06,140 --> 00:40:04,440 we'd ever get independent confirmation 826 00:40:09,350 --> 00:40:06,150 of that would be if there was evidence 827 00:40:11,330 --> 00:40:09,360 of post-mortem survival that we could 828 00:40:13,610 --> 00:40:11,340 really identify as such and that's 829 00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:13,620 that's very very very tricky so you 830 00:40:20,660 --> 00:40:16,110 don't you don't you don't have any 831 00:40:24,020 --> 00:40:20,670 thoughts about things other than humans 832 00:40:26,930 --> 00:40:24,030 having consciousness oh yeah I have lots 833 00:40:29,060 --> 00:40:26,940 of thoughts about that and I believe 834 00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:29,070 various nonhumans have consciousness so 835 00:40:33,230 --> 00:40:30,690 I don't limit consciousness to human 836 00:40:36,140 --> 00:40:33,240 beings okay that's where I was going I 837 00:40:38,150 --> 00:40:36,150 guess oh well you know it could be your 838 00:40:41,270 --> 00:40:38,160 dog fight over who is the key to you for 839 00:40:50,630 --> 00:40:41,280 all you know you know you didn't feed 840 00:40:52,610 --> 00:40:50,640 Fido on time well I can't follow you is 841 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:52,620 this idea that we can eat some how 842 00:40:57,220 --> 00:40:54,450 neatly gets the idea that all 843 00:40:59,630 --> 00:40:57,230 consciousness is is one I don't see how 844 00:41:03,020 --> 00:40:59,640 what the connection there is I guess 845 00:41:06,970 --> 00:41:03,030 that's a spiritual concept which is kind 846 00:41:10,700 --> 00:41:06,980 of new agey that has been sold to people 847 00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:10,710 you know largely in the past forty years 848 00:41:21,620 --> 00:41:17,810 or so but is part of I think the eastern 849 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:21,630 meditational concepts of India and Tibet 850 00:41:26,810 --> 00:41:23,850 yeah I'm familiar with the view I just 851 00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:26,820 don't know how you get to it yeah I how 852 00:41:32,210 --> 00:41:29,250 I personally get to it or how one should 853 00:41:34,580 --> 00:41:32,220 get to it whether there's a whether it's 854 00:41:35,390 --> 00:41:34,590 just through some kind of intuition that 855 00:41:37,340 --> 00:41:35,400 it's correct 856 00:41:38,750 --> 00:41:37,350 I mean to argue the way that you were 857 00:41:41,870 --> 00:41:38,760 arguing I don't see how you got to it 858 00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:41,880 okay yeah I would say that the way a 859 00:41:46,220 --> 00:41:44,850 person not me necessarily might get to 860 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:46,230 that point of view is through a 861 00:41:56,270 --> 00:41:51,210 transcendent experience or like a yeah 862 00:41:58,640 --> 00:41:56,280 transcendent experience or a Kundalini 863 00:42:00,680 --> 00:41:58,650 rising type experience that sort of a 864 00:42:01,550 --> 00:42:00,690 thing that's very tricky one of the 865 00:42:02,900 --> 00:42:01,560 lessons we've learned 866 00:42:05,930 --> 00:42:02,910 and I think from the history of modern 867 00:42:08,890 --> 00:42:05,940 philosophy or even ancient philosophy 868 00:42:12,430 --> 00:42:08,900 for that matter any philosophy that 869 00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:12,440 bases the fundamental truths on 870 00:42:18,410 --> 00:42:15,450 statements that are presumably intuitive 871 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:18,420 to be true there's a question that shows 872 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:20,010 immediately what's wrong with it 873 00:42:25,550 --> 00:42:22,410 how do you how do you know intuitively 874 00:42:27,410 --> 00:42:25,560 whether something that appears to you to 875 00:42:29,810 --> 00:42:27,420 be clear and distinct is actually clear 876 00:42:34,670 --> 00:42:29,820 indistinct or does it just appear to be 877 00:42:36,500 --> 00:42:34,680 and there is no internal umpire that can 878 00:42:40,940 --> 00:42:36,510 guarantee you a correct answer to that 879 00:42:43,670 --> 00:42:40,950 question to that when I was doing 880 00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:43,680 philosophy in school and you say yeah 881 00:42:51,350 --> 00:42:45,330 I'll tell you one thing kid you stub 882 00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:51,360 your toe it hurts all right empirical 883 00:43:01,940 --> 00:42:58,050 evidence well III think that that again 884 00:43:05,690 --> 00:43:01,950 is a point you know there are people who 885 00:43:07,700 --> 00:43:05,700 do indeed are just very very Newtonian I 886 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:07,710 guess for want of a better word I mean I 887 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:10,410 think a lot of people are and it works 888 00:43:14,630 --> 00:43:12,210 it works very well it works extremely 889 00:43:16,940 --> 00:43:14,640 well in most people's lifestyle they 890 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:16,950 shut up and calculate model well why not 891 00:43:21,230 --> 00:43:19,530 I mean it you know it works great you 892 00:43:24,260 --> 00:43:21,240 you know even the schmoes old next-door 893 00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:24,270 has been by a car it may fail but they 894 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:26,690 could buy one and they bought the bridge 895 00:43:33,710 --> 00:43:32,010 which is but you know and I think that's 896 00:43:36,380 --> 00:43:33,720 another reason people are so reluctant 897 00:43:38,540 --> 00:43:36,390 to get into any of the paranormal or it 898 00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:38,550 frightens them because their lives are 899 00:43:42,710 --> 00:43:40,770 very well regulated and they run nicely 900 00:43:44,870 --> 00:43:42,720 and you know all this other stuff is 901 00:43:47,780 --> 00:43:44,880 sort of scary and it's unexplained and 902 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:47,790 it just made mess everything up and I 903 00:43:53,420 --> 00:43:49,410 think that's part of the problem it's 904 00:43:58,130 --> 00:43:53,430 it's also losing control what I find 905 00:44:01,730 --> 00:43:58,140 with the you know the rabid materialists 906 00:44:04,580 --> 00:44:01,740 the scientism crowd is that they're 907 00:44:06,890 --> 00:44:04,590 largely men and they're really afraid of 908 00:44:09,050 --> 00:44:06,900 losing control and so it's sort of all 909 00:44:12,470 --> 00:44:09,060 feeds into that from my point of view 910 00:44:15,350 --> 00:44:12,480 just speaking to some individuals of 911 00:44:17,540 --> 00:44:15,360 that nature there comes a point where 912 00:44:20,060 --> 00:44:17,550 they start to get really nervous and 913 00:44:24,050 --> 00:44:20,070 their eyes start to glaze over and they 914 00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:24,060 just are negative no no no and and you 915 00:44:29,060 --> 00:44:27,090 feel like they have the idea that 916 00:44:31,400 --> 00:44:29,070 they're losing control this can't 917 00:44:34,010 --> 00:44:31,410 possibly be because what it means if 918 00:44:37,580 --> 00:44:34,020 it's true is that they're not on the top 919 00:44:41,240 --> 00:44:37,590 of the food chain or somebody else might 920 00:44:44,450 --> 00:44:41,250 have secret powers over them or whatever 921 00:44:46,310 --> 00:44:44,460 like that leads to very interesting 922 00:44:51,470 --> 00:44:46,320 behaviors I mean I've been talking about 923 00:44:54,650 --> 00:44:51,480 pk for decades and I can just see the 924 00:44:57,020 --> 00:44:54,660 panic in the audience when I do that and 925 00:44:59,060 --> 00:44:57,030 what I see is that people who really 926 00:45:01,490 --> 00:44:59,070 should know better start attacking me 927 00:45:04,430 --> 00:45:01,500 with kinds of reasoning that they know 928 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:04,440 to be effect defective and whose defects 929 00:45:07,550 --> 00:45:06,090 they would be very quick to point out if 930 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:07,560 the same kinds of arguments were ever 931 00:45:13,450 --> 00:45:10,650 directed against them yeah so it's like 932 00:45:16,610 --> 00:45:13,460 a veil of stupidity descends over them 933 00:45:20,420 --> 00:45:16,620 or protection but I mean the classic is 934 00:45:24,140 --> 00:45:20,430 NASA who absolutely just scoffs at UFOs 935 00:45:25,940 --> 00:45:24,150 and yet we've sent UFOs to Wars you know 936 00:45:27,650 --> 00:45:25,950 if you were a Martian and something was 937 00:45:30,410 --> 00:45:27,660 circling your planet it certainly would 938 00:45:33,290 --> 00:45:30,420 be a UFO so that actually nASA has 939 00:45:35,210 --> 00:45:33,300 created them but just cannot accept the 940 00:45:36,980 --> 00:45:35,220 fact that there's another sentient being 941 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:36,990 that could do the same thing to us or 942 00:45:44,030 --> 00:45:40,970 that people in their own ranks have 943 00:45:47,180 --> 00:45:44,040 defected and said that they have seen 944 00:45:50,090 --> 00:45:47,190 UFOs most pertinent the form was was the 945 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:50,100 guy with the the Martian guy I think you 946 00:45:54,950 --> 00:45:52,530 had him on that had was talking about 947 00:45:57,170 --> 00:45:54,960 that Brandenburg yeah he was a NASA 948 00:46:01,130 --> 00:45:57,180 employee for years right kind of high up 949 00:46:03,830 --> 00:46:01,140 but we we going afield here okay um in 950 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:03,840 any case let's get to our listener 951 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:07,010 question okay our listener question 952 00:46:13,970 --> 00:46:10,050 comes from a lady who is a regular 953 00:46:14,660 --> 00:46:13,980 listener and has also seen videos on the 954 00:46:17,050 --> 00:46:14,670 Internet 955 00:46:19,820 --> 00:46:17,060 where a young lady in the Middle East 956 00:46:21,980 --> 00:46:19,830 produces crystals from her eyes and I 957 00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:21,990 said I thought that it had been debunked 958 00:46:28,310 --> 00:46:25,290 that her father had forced her to put 959 00:46:30,500 --> 00:46:28,320 this in her tear canals or something 960 00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:30,510 what do you know about that if anything 961 00:46:35,870 --> 00:46:33,330 or is it just don't know about that but 962 00:46:38,450 --> 00:46:35,880 I do know about some psychics who've 963 00:46:41,650 --> 00:46:38,460 ostensibly made crystals appear in their 964 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:41,660 eyes I also know that it is possible to 965 00:46:47,090 --> 00:46:44,010 put them in there ahead of time and then 966 00:46:51,190 --> 00:46:47,100 make them move up secret them away and 967 00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:51,200 and I assumed that you were also a 968 00:46:57,370 --> 00:46:54,530 somebody who knows stanley crypt nur and 969 00:47:01,310 --> 00:46:57,380 he has had some very very interesting 970 00:47:05,930 --> 00:47:01,320 cases of airports appearing when he was 971 00:47:08,060 --> 00:47:05,940 in South America yes yes great great 972 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:08,070 stories he's a great guy I happened to 973 00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:10,650 have met him in Brooklyn and he has 974 00:47:16,490 --> 00:47:12,810 wonderful stories about that and I think 975 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:16,500 that I am more likely to believe him 976 00:47:22,130 --> 00:47:18,450 than most people 977 00:47:25,420 --> 00:47:22,140 before we go maybe I'd like to talk a 978 00:47:29,720 --> 00:47:25,430 little about the the ted serios case 979 00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:29,730 that's the case close to my heart well I 980 00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:33,210 think it's probably the best documented 981 00:47:43,430 --> 00:47:38,730 case of macro PK in the 20th century Ted 982 00:47:45,710 --> 00:47:43,440 was a former bellhop in Chicago who 983 00:47:49,220 --> 00:47:45,720 discovered that he had the ability to 984 00:47:52,670 --> 00:47:49,230 make images appear on instant so called 985 00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:52,680 instant Polaroid film and he was studied 986 00:47:57,260 --> 00:47:55,170 for three years by jewel I some been a 987 00:48:01,040 --> 00:47:57,270 psychiatrist located at the time in 988 00:48:05,050 --> 00:48:01,050 Denver and during that time Ted produced 989 00:48:07,630 --> 00:48:05,060 thousands of anomalous photos under 990 00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:07,640 conditions that really can't be 991 00:48:12,730 --> 00:48:09,930 explained away I mean he could be 992 00:48:16,550 --> 00:48:12,740 separated from the camera he could be 993 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:16,560 clothed in a one-piece jump monkey suit 994 00:48:21,470 --> 00:48:19,650 by the experimenters located in the 995 00:48:23,420 --> 00:48:21,480 Faraday cage the camera could be on the 996 00:48:27,100 --> 00:48:23,430 outside of the cage sometimes as much as 997 00:48:31,150 --> 00:48:27,110 60 feet away from him and he even got 998 00:48:33,500 --> 00:48:31,160 correspondences between his photos and 999 00:48:37,460 --> 00:48:33,510 concealed target images which he'd never 1000 00:48:38,589 --> 00:48:37,470 seen the case is very interesting the 1001 00:48:42,430 --> 00:48:38,599 distortions 1002 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:42,440 of real objects that he produced in his 1003 00:48:47,739 --> 00:48:45,249 photos are according to eyes and bud 1004 00:48:50,670 --> 00:48:47,749 clues to what was really going on in 1005 00:48:53,259 --> 00:48:50,680 Ted's unconscious so I mean there was a 1006 00:48:55,779 --> 00:48:53,269 photo that Ted produced of Eisenberg's 1007 00:48:58,930 --> 00:48:55,789 ranch which depicts the ranch 1008 00:49:01,150 --> 00:48:58,940 in a condition in which it existed 1009 00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:01,160 before Ted had ever been there and also 1010 00:49:04,809 --> 00:49:03,170 at the same time depicted it in other 1011 00:49:05,999 --> 00:49:04,819 respects and conditions in which it had 1012 00:49:08,829 --> 00:49:06,009 never existed 1013 00:49:12,969 --> 00:49:08,839 interesting interesting did they ever 1014 00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:12,979 find any was there an explanation of any 1015 00:49:20,410 --> 00:49:16,249 sort for that skeptics like to claim 1016 00:49:22,630 --> 00:49:20,420 that to produce these by concealing 1017 00:49:24,579 --> 00:49:22,640 little transparencies and a rolled a 1018 00:49:27,249 --> 00:49:24,589 piece of black paper that had called a 1019 00:49:29,890 --> 00:49:27,259 gizmo this piece of black paper was what 1020 00:49:32,140 --> 00:49:29,900 came in packs of Polaroid film mm-hmm 1021 00:49:34,390 --> 00:49:32,150 and Ted used it as just a crutch as a 1022 00:49:37,690 --> 00:49:34,400 device he would sometimes hold it right 1023 00:49:39,609 --> 00:49:37,700 up to the camera but sometimes he didn't 1024 00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:39,619 have a gizmo at all sometimes the gizmo 1025 00:49:43,950 --> 00:49:41,410 was quite a distance from the camera 1026 00:49:48,729 --> 00:49:43,960 it's it's a completely lame explanation 1027 00:49:50,410 --> 00:49:48,739 if if Ted were concealing a transparency 1028 00:49:52,359 --> 00:49:50,420 in the gizmo he'd have to hold it right 1029 00:49:53,859 --> 00:49:52,369 up to the camera lens otherwise the 1030 00:49:56,499 --> 00:49:53,869 camera would take a picture of the gizmo 1031 00:49:57,999 --> 00:49:56,509 not the transparency so the fact that he 1032 00:50:00,160 --> 00:49:58,009 was separated from the camera by 1033 00:50:02,799 --> 00:50:00,170 considerable distances rules that out 1034 00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:02,809 also Ted produced so-called black E's 1035 00:50:07,839 --> 00:50:05,930 and Whitey's Blackie's were totally 1036 00:50:09,549 --> 00:50:07,849 underexposed pictures and conditions 1037 00:50:11,589 --> 00:50:09,559 when light was not prevented from 1038 00:50:15,549 --> 00:50:11,599 reaching the lens and whities were 1039 00:50:17,410 --> 00:50:15,559 totally overexposed pictures when all 1040 00:50:20,289 --> 00:50:17,420 light was blocked from reaching the lens 1041 00:50:22,479 --> 00:50:20,299 so the gizmo hypothesis or the 1042 00:50:25,390 --> 00:50:22,489 transparency in the gizmo hypothesis is 1043 00:50:27,819 --> 00:50:25,400 completely mute on that subject so it's 1044 00:50:30,670 --> 00:50:27,829 just nonsense well that's really really 1045 00:50:33,519 --> 00:50:30,680 interesting in this case not in the case 1046 00:50:36,789 --> 00:50:33,529 of I mean in the generic sense of 1047 00:50:41,170 --> 00:50:36,799 producing photographs there have been 1048 00:50:45,430 --> 00:50:41,180 people who appear to be frauds and so 1049 00:50:48,459 --> 00:50:45,440 it's natural for somebody who was is a 1050 00:50:49,730 --> 00:50:48,469 skeptic and not a debunker debunkers we 1051 00:50:52,790 --> 00:50:49,740 don't like here on 1052 00:50:55,430 --> 00:50:52,800 shattered reality but skeptics we we 1053 00:50:57,650 --> 00:50:55,440 consider we you know give the skeptic 1054 00:51:00,830 --> 00:50:57,660 that the point to say something if 1055 00:51:04,340 --> 00:51:00,840 they'd like there's fair and balanced 1056 00:51:08,030 --> 00:51:04,350 right and when we take somebody like 1057 00:51:11,359 --> 00:51:08,040 this fellow in in the Netherlands 1058 00:51:13,250 --> 00:51:11,369 Roberts and a verb yes and a purport and 1059 00:51:15,530 --> 00:51:13,260 now I don't know the man I haven't seen 1060 00:51:18,950 --> 00:51:15,540 him I'm not making a judgment on him I 1061 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:18,960 just wanna to clear myself legally but 1062 00:51:24,260 --> 00:51:21,210 for all intents and purposes it would 1063 00:51:25,820 --> 00:51:24,270 appear to be fraudulent I've heard that 1064 00:51:28,010 --> 00:51:25,830 but again I don't know the case 1065 00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:28,020 intimately enough to know what to say 1066 00:51:32,060 --> 00:51:29,850 I'd be very happy to study and myself 1067 00:51:33,310 --> 00:51:32,070 under my conditions right right and it 1068 00:51:37,700 --> 00:51:33,320 would be interesting if you would 1069 00:51:41,420 --> 00:51:37,710 certainly and given that there is the 1070 00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:41,430 option for a fraud I do understand why 1071 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:43,890 there are people who are skeptics who 1072 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:45,930 want to look deeply into these issues 1073 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:48,450 but I have no time for the debunkers 1074 00:51:55,490 --> 00:51:52,770 those people who you know drama bad 1075 00:51:58,160 --> 00:51:55,500 arguments against you fraudulent logic 1076 00:52:00,020 --> 00:51:58,170 and so forth good for you but that's one 1077 00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:00,030 of the reasons the ted serios case is 1078 00:52:04,730 --> 00:52:02,850 important because polaroid photos being 1079 00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:04,740 instantly developed right in front of 1080 00:52:08,930 --> 00:52:06,570 your eyes you can't attribute the 1081 00:52:11,420 --> 00:52:08,940 effects to darkroom techniques for 1082 00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:11,430 example so actually what you're saying 1083 00:52:15,859 --> 00:52:13,530 is this fella had a picture in his mind 1084 00:52:19,780 --> 00:52:15,869 for whatever reason let's say he the 1085 00:52:23,750 --> 00:52:19,790 psychiatrist ranch and he was able to 1086 00:52:28,460 --> 00:52:23,760 manipulate the the atoms on a photograph 1087 00:52:30,109 --> 00:52:28,470 film to represent us with i mean it's 1088 00:52:33,020 --> 00:52:30,119 hard enough to draw it with a pen and 1089 00:52:36,500 --> 00:52:33,030 paper and he's able to just change atoms 1090 00:52:38,950 --> 00:52:36,510 or silver iodide whatever it is on the 1091 00:52:41,690 --> 00:52:38,960 polaroid films just turning them around 1092 00:52:44,510 --> 00:52:41,700 darkening some whitening others to 1093 00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:44,520 pursue it seemed wow 1094 00:52:51,410 --> 00:52:48,770 that's pretty remarkable it is really 1095 00:52:54,020 --> 00:52:51,420 you know it's just like UFO it's so 1096 00:52:56,390 --> 00:52:54,030 unbelievable it's unbelievable but it 1097 00:52:58,010 --> 00:52:56,400 actually happens and so what do you how 1098 00:52:59,690 --> 00:52:58,020 do you how do you deal with it 1099 00:53:03,800 --> 00:52:59,700 and with the the Black Keys and the 1100 00:53:09,970 --> 00:53:07,480 to say that there's got to be some 1101 00:53:14,030 --> 00:53:09,980 transmission of energy there to make 1102 00:53:15,380 --> 00:53:14,040 obviously you know I don't know what to 1103 00:53:17,720 --> 00:53:15,390 say there there are some interesting 1104 00:53:21,350 --> 00:53:17,730 philosophical issues about what kind of 1105 00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:21,360 causality we're talking about when we're 1106 00:53:26,240 --> 00:53:23,130 discussing these kinds of phenomena is 1107 00:53:29,630 --> 00:53:26,250 it something produced through a series 1108 00:53:31,790 --> 00:53:29,640 of steps along the way or is it really 1109 00:53:33,950 --> 00:53:31,800 like waving a magic wand where you just 1110 00:53:35,780 --> 00:53:33,960 wish for an outcome and then assuming 1111 00:53:38,780 --> 00:53:35,790 there's a clearing in the thicket it 1112 00:53:40,580 --> 00:53:38,790 just occurs there are no series of 1113 00:53:43,850 --> 00:53:40,590 intermediate steps it's really just the 1114 00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:43,860 direct cause-and-effect interesting 1115 00:53:46,700 --> 00:53:44,850 interesting 1116 00:53:51,620 --> 00:53:46,710 and so maybe we shouldn't try to explain 1117 00:53:58,730 --> 00:53:51,630 it just except well human to explain 1118 00:54:01,010 --> 00:53:58,740 things but really why but wait there are 1119 00:54:03,410 --> 00:54:01,020 different kinds of explanations mmm what 1120 00:54:05,330 --> 00:54:03,420 most scientists assume is that what it 1121 00:54:07,310 --> 00:54:05,340 means to explain a phenomenon like this 1122 00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:07,320 is to break it down into component parts 1123 00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:09,210 and explain it mechanistically and the 1124 00:54:15,290 --> 00:54:11,810 way we explain heat is molecular motion 1125 00:54:18,610 --> 00:54:15,300 but I don't think you know vertical 1126 00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:18,620 analysis or an explanation by analysis 1127 00:54:24,110 --> 00:54:21,930 into lower-level phenomena that has to 1128 00:54:25,520 --> 00:54:24,120 stop somewhere both scientists assume 1129 00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:25,530 it's always at the level of the very 1130 00:54:29,030 --> 00:54:27,290 small the atomic subatomic 1131 00:54:31,310 --> 00:54:29,040 neurophysiological something like that 1132 00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:31,320 never behaves 1133 00:54:35,300 --> 00:54:33,450 what I would say is that sometimes it 1134 00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:35,310 really is at the level of behavior and 1135 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:36,930 there there are other kinds of 1136 00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:39,290 explanations like in terms of some 1137 00:54:48,890 --> 00:54:47,130 supervening law yeah really 1138 00:54:50,570 --> 00:54:48,900 not much to say I mean how do you 1139 00:54:52,910 --> 00:54:50,580 explain that you like blue and you don't 1140 00:54:54,310 --> 00:54:52,920 like yellow I mean it's because you 1141 00:55:00,860 --> 00:54:54,320 don't and that's it 1142 00:55:04,430 --> 00:55:00,870 explanation needed passage sorry 1143 00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:04,440 I like blue and yellow okay there's no 1144 00:55:09,780 --> 00:55:05,890 explanation 1145 00:55:14,220 --> 00:55:09,790 you have to like what chocolate or 1146 00:55:16,620 --> 00:55:14,230 vanilla hey I think you raised some 1147 00:55:18,990 --> 00:55:16,630 really interesting questions I think 1148 00:55:22,170 --> 00:55:19,000 it's very important some people start to 1149 00:55:24,450 --> 00:55:22,180 follow in your footsteps as well because 1150 00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:24,460 it opens a whole new avenue a thought 1151 00:55:27,780 --> 00:55:26,770 and thinking about the world and that's 1152 00:55:31,170 --> 00:55:27,790 what's important 1153 00:55:33,720 --> 00:55:31,180 beef beef I was going to do this after 1154 00:55:37,740 --> 00:55:33,730 we said goodbye to you but I have 1155 00:55:39,390 --> 00:55:37,750 decided to say it during the time we're 1156 00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:39,400 speaking with you if you have another 1157 00:55:46,830 --> 00:55:42,850 four minutes or so well first the first 1158 00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:46,840 thing is that we are welcoming our 1159 00:55:54,300 --> 00:55:51,610 listeners to send in instances of pique 1160 00:55:56,700 --> 00:55:54,310 that they would like to talk to us about 1161 00:55:59,130 --> 00:55:56,710 or would like recounted or even if 1162 00:56:02,040 --> 00:55:59,140 perhaps they would like a five minute or 1163 00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:02,050 10 minutes lot to explain their stories 1164 00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:06,850 on on shattered reality podcast but it's 1165 00:56:13,500 --> 00:56:10,810 somewhat unusually last night I had my 1166 00:56:16,050 --> 00:56:13,510 own very strange experience that I want 1167 00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:16,060 to relate and it was not frightening but 1168 00:56:20,700 --> 00:56:18,970 it was damn strange I was in a building 1169 00:56:23,100 --> 00:56:20,710 a two-story building center hall 1170 00:56:27,450 --> 00:56:23,110 colonial building standing at the top of 1171 00:56:31,140 --> 00:56:27,460 the stairway and there was was a bedroom 1172 00:56:34,140 --> 00:56:31,150 in my view which I could see the door to 1173 00:56:37,290 --> 00:56:34,150 and in this house live two cats a red 1174 00:56:40,070 --> 00:56:37,300 cat and a black cat and I saw the red 1175 00:56:42,930 --> 00:56:40,080 the black cat run in to the bedroom 1176 00:56:45,060 --> 00:56:42,940 across from the stairway I'm standing at 1177 00:56:47,820 --> 00:56:45,070 the top of the stairway the black cat 1178 00:56:50,670 --> 00:56:47,830 runs in the bedroom and I speak down the 1179 00:56:54,690 --> 00:56:50,680 stairway to the man who whose bedroom it 1180 00:56:56,610 --> 00:56:54,700 was and I said does that cat often go 1181 00:56:59,580 --> 00:56:56,620 into your room was spend time in your 1182 00:57:02,190 --> 00:56:59,590 room because the cat is a former feral 1183 00:57:04,590 --> 00:57:02,200 cat and is not very friendly to the man 1184 00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:04,600 so I was very surprised to see the cat 1185 00:57:10,380 --> 00:57:07,570 running into his bedroom he was seated 1186 00:57:14,670 --> 00:57:10,390 on a sofa at the bottom of the stairs 1187 00:57:17,400 --> 00:57:14,680 was halfway in my view and as he was 1188 00:57:19,630 --> 00:57:17,410 answering and I was coming down the 1189 00:57:22,750 --> 00:57:19,640 stairs the one and only 1190 00:57:25,900 --> 00:57:22,760 cat in the house ran out of the dining 1191 00:57:28,360 --> 00:57:25,910 room from downstairs so it couldn't have 1192 00:57:29,230 --> 00:57:28,370 I mean he did not pass me the cat did 1193 00:57:31,630 --> 00:57:29,240 not pass me 1194 00:57:37,030 --> 00:57:31,640 this all happened within 20 seconds of 1195 00:57:39,430 --> 00:57:37,040 each other somehow he the cat entered 1196 00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:39,440 one bedroom and came out of another 1197 00:57:46,900 --> 00:57:43,130 bedroom from which there was no egress 1198 00:57:48,550 --> 00:57:46,910 or ingress cats are very strange 1199 00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:48,560 creatures and there's so many stories 1200 00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:49,610 about them 1201 00:57:54,940 --> 00:57:53,090 Cheshire cat just so many what one very 1202 00:57:57,100 --> 00:57:54,950 interesting story about me with a cat 1203 00:57:59,320 --> 00:57:57,110 was I just moved into apartment it was 1204 00:58:01,510 --> 00:57:59,330 absolutely nothing in this one room I 1205 00:58:04,540 --> 00:58:01,520 had a cat that I needed to bring with me 1206 00:58:06,670 --> 00:58:04,550 and so I figured fine I shut the doors 1207 00:58:10,090 --> 00:58:06,680 to the room got the carrier went back in 1208 00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:10,100 there was no cat there and this was in 1209 00:58:13,840 --> 00:58:11,810 an apartment it wasn't as if it was an 1210 00:58:18,820 --> 00:58:13,850 old house with a lot of places so I'm 1211 00:58:21,130 --> 00:58:18,830 looking all over not they're not looking 1212 00:58:23,890 --> 00:58:21,140 looking at the apartment kept the doors 1213 00:58:27,730 --> 00:58:23,900 closed went back into that room and they 1214 00:58:29,590 --> 00:58:27,740 catch sitting on top of the table the 1215 00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:29,600 chests are Cat grin and I mean I'm 1216 00:58:36,310 --> 00:58:31,250 thinking like I probably overlooked it 1217 00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:36,320 somewhere but there's a lot of strange 1218 00:58:40,150 --> 00:58:38,450 stories about cats cats they're home 1219 00:58:47,860 --> 00:58:40,160 you should start studying cats now 1220 00:58:50,050 --> 00:58:47,870 that's an interesting species oh they do 1221 00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:50,060 they do they absolutely do but none that 1222 00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:52,490 happened that I happen to wanted to 1223 00:58:57,610 --> 00:58:54,530 document that because this happened last 1224 00:59:00,880 --> 00:58:57,620 night mm-hm and I wasn't afraid at the 1225 00:59:03,580 --> 00:59:00,890 time it just was so bizarre but after it 1226 00:59:08,980 --> 00:59:03,590 happened and my mind was rolling it 1227 00:59:11,740 --> 00:59:08,990 around I said hmmmm anyway Steve thank 1228 00:59:13,420 --> 00:59:11,750 you so much it was just wonderful to 1229 00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:13,430 talk to you thank you so much for taking 1230 00:59:18,910 --> 00:59:15,290 the time to be with us I really 1231 00:59:20,470 --> 00:59:18,920 appreciate it was a great and and and we 1232 00:59:23,620 --> 00:59:20,480 hope you'll come on again and maybe 1233 00:59:26,950 --> 00:59:23,630 speak to us more about the survival of 1234 00:59:29,830 --> 00:59:26,960 you know loved species no that's not 1235 00:59:32,740 --> 00:59:29,840 going to happen but so a by a survival 1236 00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:32,750 of bodily death sure have your people 1237 00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:33,530 call my 1238 00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:38,810 oh thank you your lordship thank you 1239 00:59:54,370 --> 00:59:50,200 Wow well my reality has been somewhat 1240 00:59:58,150 --> 00:59:54,380 shattered I'm not really a big sigh 1241 01:00:00,910 --> 00:59:58,160 person you know I know I know but I 1242 01:00:03,040 --> 01:00:00,920 don't think of myself that way no but 1243 01:00:05,590 --> 01:00:03,050 that was a two-story that's a cat that's 1244 01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:05,600 that was unbelievable better talking 1245 01:00:10,060 --> 01:00:06,530 about black cats 1246 01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:10,070 we had one was a feral cat can do it but 1247 01:00:14,140 --> 01:00:11,810 live with us for eight years and 1248 01:00:16,710 --> 01:00:14,150 tragically was killed by a car uh-huh I 1249 01:00:19,420 --> 01:00:16,720 felt terribly going don't want to detail 1250 01:00:21,310 --> 01:00:19,430 about a week later I was leaving the 1251 01:00:24,340 --> 01:00:21,320 driveway across the street little black 1252 01:00:26,890 --> 01:00:24,350 kitten comes frisket across same type 1253 01:00:29,500 --> 01:00:26,900 gate with the tail held in the same way 1254 01:00:31,750 --> 01:00:29,510 turn looked at me and then sort of just 1255 01:00:33,310 --> 01:00:31,760 wandered off I never saw really yeah it 1256 01:00:36,970 --> 01:00:33,320 was his way of coming back and saying 1257 01:00:41,230 --> 01:00:36,980 goodbye I'm sure I had a feral cat named 1258 01:00:43,750 --> 01:00:41,240 rusty Buster mm-hmm and he he told me 1259 01:00:47,770 --> 01:00:43,760 before he was leaving mm-hmm that he was 1260 01:00:49,140 --> 01:00:47,780 leaving and then he disappeared and was 1261 01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:49,150 never seen again 1262 01:00:54,670 --> 01:00:52,610 and we really wanted him to come back 1263 01:00:59,200 --> 01:00:54,680 you know we intended that he should come 1264 01:01:00,910 --> 01:00:59,210 back and who shows up you know but 1265 01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:00,920 Charles you know in a different 1266 01:01:06,580 --> 01:01:03,650 situation and here he was a red cat also 1267 01:01:08,770 --> 01:01:06,590 and had a lot of the same nice qualities 1268 01:01:10,810 --> 01:01:08,780 in any case hey if you have any 1269 01:01:21,550 --> 01:01:10,820 interesting side pet stores who'd love 1270 01:01:29,110 --> 01:01:21,560 to hear those too absolutely PK did you 1271 01:01:32,370 --> 01:01:29,120 know what did you call it Hamlet was it 1272 01:01:40,270 --> 01:01:32,380 have anything to do with ham and bacon 1273 01:01:43,900 --> 01:01:40,280 oh sure all righty so we should sign off 1274 01:01:47,220 --> 01:01:43,910 from shattered reality and we are going 1275 01:01:50,819 --> 01:01:47,230 to hope to get our hour 1276 01:01:54,300 --> 01:01:50,829 last guests that we couldn't get on 1277 01:01:57,510 --> 01:01:54,310 about something where they and that was 1278 01:02:02,300 --> 01:01:57,520 mr. Andrew chest not who has written an 1279 01:02:06,420 --> 01:02:02,310 interesting book on one of the most 1280 01:02:08,550 --> 01:02:06,430 strange new religious movements some 1281 01:02:12,329 --> 01:02:08,560 people call it a cult some people call 1282 01:02:15,599 --> 01:02:12,339 it a movement of mostly Mexican and 1283 01:02:18,030 --> 01:02:15,609 nearby latin-american countries which is 1284 01:02:21,420 --> 01:02:18,040 called sontham where they now most 1285 01:02:23,700 --> 01:02:21,430 Americans who are familiar with Mexico 1286 01:02:27,750 --> 01:02:23,710 are familiar with some of the day of the 1287 01:02:31,430 --> 01:02:27,760 dead sculptures which are very 1288 01:02:34,740 --> 01:02:31,440 interesting skeletal things but lately 1289 01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:34,750 there's been a large increase in the 1290 01:02:39,180 --> 01:02:37,450 worship of sontham with this so we're 1291 01:02:41,730 --> 01:02:39,190 gonna hope that that's our next show we 1292 01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:41,740 had to postpone it but we're hoping that 1293 01:02:48,569 --> 01:02:44,890 it comes on next time okay Kay okay and 1294 01:02:52,710 --> 01:02:48,579 now what goodbye or um okay Valentine 1295 01:02:55,349 --> 01:02:52,720 hearsay Purusha what I'm shattered 1296 01:02:57,089 --> 01:02:55,359 reality from shared reality yes I